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Exegesis Volume 2 Issue #10
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Exegesis Digest Wed, 19 Mar 1997
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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:22:14 +0000
From: Matthew Wilson
Subject: Re: Exegesis Digest V2 #7
skyweasel writes:
>> From: Matthew Wilson
>> Subject: Re: Exegesis Digest V2 #4
>>
>> increase daily and that was 1,500 years ago. The main problem seems to
>> be the failure of our current tools: astrologers are attempting to
>> predict using tools which over the years have got rusty or misunderstood
>> - especially from mistranslations of the classical material (see Project
>> Hindsight). Hence the reduction of predictive classical astrology
>> (albeit with complexity) to vague psychological astrology.
>
> Are you saying that Hindsight is mistranslating the material they are
> working on? I don't subscribe to Hindsight, but I also don't believe,
> from what I've seen of their work, that they are promulgating "vague
> psychological astrology."
No - I am saying that Project Hindsight is demonstrating these
mistranslations. Robert Hand has convinvingly shown, for instance,
how the plethora of House Systems in use today originated in one
mistranslated line from Ptolemy. Prior to that only one system
(Equal Whole Sign Houses) was in use. His point is that much of the
original material, which involves some fairly complex techniques,
was translated by Classicists with little or no knowledge of
astrology. Project Hindsight is also demonstrating - through its
extensive footnotes - how difficult this material is to translate
and how - even with both the linguistic and astrological
scholarship of its editors and translators - difficult to fully
understand and open to many interpretations, the original material
can be.
Matthew Wilson
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:54:27 -0500
From: Roger L. Satterlee
Subject: "Astropsychobabbling" explores the nature of Astrology
I personally don't have a brilliant mind, nor do I have any stamina,
but there are people out there who do have these qualities and I
think it worth the effort to slip a little astrology into their
world, as slyly as possible, where it might better progress as the
study of a human mental behavior. I think "astropsychobabbling" is
a nose under tent, and while I cannot predict success, I do not see
any success in a thousand perfect predictions if the process is not
more interesting than the product. The attempts at understanding
the arts of being human are much more important to the world than
merely being right for a brief self-agrandizing moment (althought
the latter is extremely pleasant..:)
I forward the following post for your perusal, I think of it as the
planting of seeds in the consciousness of the academicians:
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:35:58 EST
Sender: Institute for Psychological Study of the Arts
From: "Roger L. Satterlee"
Subject: Re: No Subject
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYART [PSYART@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu]
This relates to our Creativity / Artists and Madness threads. I
cannot help commenting that what follows seems to me a Jungian
re-statement of the Lichtenstein-Holland theory of identity.
Naturally, then, I applaud Roger Satterlee's posting.
--Best, Norm
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
The word "style" when used as it is below, I assume to mean some
behaviour charactistic of the person creating/projecting and image;
this refers to (in my mind) to a recognition that the drawing in
question has sucessfully demonstrated the "formula" of the artist's
own archetypal self. It would seem that our cumulative
individuation is a repititive, but perhaps an ever more
elaborating, search for 'translations' of one's own alchemical
'name': I assume we are born to this pattern--this achetypal
formula--and it 'may' be facilitated by our experience and our
cultural resources...Life seems a quest to better 'spell' this
'name' and so one draws upon the exact same properties of personal
inheritance every time one expresses it--the translation alone is
the only appearance of differences--of suspected changes or
otherness. The expressing of this personal molecular formula seems
adjusted as best befits the needs of a setting, and so forth. As
for meeting the needs of the self alone, a zen-like simplicity is
the shortest route to defining one's particular pattern of unity.
One's most familiar appearing obscurities are akin to the act of
'speaking in tongues', but ironically, to show one's own unity is
to give a silent reassuring testimony to the very existence of
'unity' in the universe itself.
The artist's 'muse' can be said to be this fixed but algebraic formula
which employs a finite set of collective unconscious possibilities;
though it has an endless number equivalent expressions, there is
only one pattern of identity--the persistence of personality
reflects this--the 'really out there stuff', is really 'in there'.
The quest of social adaptation is therefore perhaps a matter of
finding a social translation for this archetype of the individual's
existence--(if one indeed exists for those whom nature perhaps
intended for less than congenial social purposes).
The soul's inclination towards eternity, if I may say it that way,
which cannot yeild its integral pattern and still persist, seems
ironically composed from a pick of the draw...of near randomly
deposited naturally occuring potentials. This bridgework and
crystal web of algebraic variables seems to find its approximate
likeness in all our expression of facts and fancy.
Drawing, like all participation in the mythic realm, can point to, but
not truly describe, the 'formula' of the self-- all life is perhaps
an act of self portraiture by successive approximations. Also, it
is no surprise that one's successful self expression is recognized
by other's more easily than by ourselves, as we are more often
confined to a mirrored perspective, and they the more photographic
one.
Rog
>----------------------------Original
>message---------------------------- Creativity: a little story
>Last night I was drawing from a model and had a wonderfu night of
>creativity. Afterward I looked at what I had produced and
>reflected both on the thoughts that had occureed and the result.
>Often I wonder how creativity happens.
>
>One drawing,inparticular was a portrait in charcoal. It was drawn
>with three strokes. The strokes were long and convoluted,yes, but
>the portrait has personality and you can see all of the features.
>I drew it in about two minutes. It appears very three dimensional.
> And transparent.
>
>So I wondered:how did this happen? I spent 15 or 20 minutes before
>I started just looking. But I don't remember any verbal thought.
>I remember only looking intently. then I began and was done.
>
>It had nothing to do with madness,optimism,pessimism, theory or
>any other explanation. I had not produced anythhing like it
>before. It did not look like something I would do_ to me.
>
>Now others think it is my "style" and recognised it as such.
>Interesting.
>
>I am also a psychologist-so think in both scientific and creative
>terms-what do you think?
roger9@ix.netcom.com
11:53PM EDT 26Jul50 76W48 42N06
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7406
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 02:47:38 -0600
From: DR GONZALO PENA TAMEZ
Subject: further comments to Neil and Skywesel, from Gonzo
>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 01:52:15 +0900
>From: Neil Urquhart
>>From: DR GONZALO PENA TAMEZ
>
>Hello, Dr G:)
>>your apparently freely willed decision to select this particular
>>vehicle.
>
>Are you saying, then, that there is no such thing as free-will?
I think there are multiple planes of determination and free will
means the option to escape one plane to fall into another. If your
life is tracked in a certain direction, your free will can cause
you to change your destiny by shifting gears so that you detrack
from your current plane of determination, but in so doing you
automatically get tracked into a different plane of
determination...
>>The soul, in its ignorance...
>
>We'll have to agree to disagree on whether the soul is ignorant or
>not.
It seems safe to assume that the level of ignorance of a soul
varies from soul to soul like it does from person to person. I
think that the soul, by definition, is more concerned with deciding
not on the grounds of knowledge but, rather, on the grounds of
affective, emotional and intuitive gestalts of reaction. Of course,
ultimately, this depends on what we understand by "the soul"....But
as far as I know, the soul is usually defined as the femenine side
of spirit, isn't it?
>>I agree with you that we need not lose the sense of hierarchy in
>>dealing with the multifarious additional factors that can be
>>introduced into the chart analysis. But I do not agree with you
>>in holding that the conception chart is irrelevant.
>
>Well, if you do not accept "irrelevant", how about "secondary in
>importance" and "lower down the hierarchy"?
Maybe so, but only in as much as objective knowledge of the true
time of conception is not always easy to obtain, thus you gotta
make do with what you have. > >>But about the chart of conception,
I believe that soon we'll >>develop software to reliably find our
conception charts with real precision. >>That is the true chart of
our physical vehicle, and in it is possible to >>learn the time of
death with greater ease than from the birth chart.
Recently I have been playing around with the SolarFire software of
Astrolabe, which has a routine for deriving your chart of
conception according with various methods. In the manual of this
software package, it is explained that because there is no
consensus as to the true formula for obtaining the chart of
conception, what they reccomend is that you calculate it according
to all the methods and then study all these charts to decide which
of them seems to behave more like a true radix chart, via transits
and progressions.
>Jyotish astrologers seem to have little difficulty in determining
>the date and time of death from the natal chart. Perhaps it's
>Western astrology's methodology that is at fault.
Western astrology has all the needed tools for predicting death
from the chart. The more so now that Project Hindsight is rescuing
so much about the ancients' approach to calculate the term of life
via the Alchochoden formula as practiced by the Greeks and the
Arabs. Recently, the people at Gracentro, in Barcelona, Spain,
have been putting into modern Spanish a great deal of inedit
material about how the ancients calculated death from the chart. I
have been routinely calculating death from the chart for all my
clients for more than 20 years now. Right now I am preparing a web
site solely for the purpose of advertising my main spacialties as
an astrologer: rectification of the Ascendant and calculation of
the date and causes of death.
[snip (about the degrees for the hand)]
>Very interesting, especially to me as I have the South Node of the
>Moon at 2Vi46' (True Node) in the 7th (where the Sun is the ruler
>of the Seventh), conjunct Mars at 2Vi15' (it rules the 2nd), sq
>Nep at 28Sc ,tri Ven at 29Li and Jup at 3Sc. Merc 25Vi is also
>conjunct Plu at 26Vi, sxt Nep and tri Sat at 23Ta. So lots of
>connections with the hands - I have been told separately by
>several astrologers and palmists that I will become a healer with
>my hands. Am I destined to marry a woman minus her middle finger?
>(Please e-mail me if you would like my full birthdata.) No-one I
>know, except perhaps the local yakuza (Japanese gangsters), has
>lost any fingers.
Some of those placings and aspects, particularly Pluto's and
Mercury's, are indeed indicative of great hability to heal with
your hands. I am sure you can develop this gift with little
difficulty. Given the trines from the fortunes (Venus and Jupiter),
it is not surprising that you haven't lost a finger. These trines
do not allow thinking that your wife might have to lose a finger
either....rather, she might have beautiful and gifted hands as
well..... Still, the Node there might mean she will lose a precious
ring...Oh why don't you e-mail me your birth data?
>BTW the Ebertin's list 26Ge as connected with the wrist, 27Ge with
>the fingers, 28Ge with the metacarpal (hand) bones and Maurice
>Wemyss lists 20Ge/Sag to 22 as connected with the wrists and 29and
>30 Ge/Sag with the fingers (This info from A Handbook of Medical
>Astrology by Jane Ridder-Patrick (London: Arkana, 1990))
>>I foresee we will see
>>the end of life in this planet by the year 2013, when the
>>Uranus/Pluto square that brought us World War 2 returns in
>>heavens.
>
>There have been many predictions of the end of the world. None
>have come to pass.
There is some hope that the world might not end in 2012-2013, but
I'd say it is slim. Hpe is the last thing to die though...
>What, then, is the essence of astrology? Certainly I could agree
>with you that astrology is a tool and has a wider range of
>applicability than "just" giving better readings to clients but
>doesn't an astrologer who gives readings for clients have to be
>some sort of a counsellor as well? I mean you can't just say to a
>client "Well, I'm sorry to have to tell you this but your husband
>is going to die tomorrow, your son is going to become a crack
>dealer and next month you'll be told you've got breast cancer the
>day after you lose your job" and then show them to the door.
The essence of astrology is its reliance on the rational
application of the principle of cosmic synchronicity to obtain
objective knowledge without the spacio-temporal restrictions that
limit current conventional scientific methodology.
>An "objective epistemology" is all very well but there seems to be
>no room for morality or sense of ethics in your universe. For all
>this eulogising of 'pure' science we need some morality or sense
>of ethics to guide its "technological application" or else we do
>get an atomic bomb whether that is the goal of nuclear physics or
>not. Knowledge for knowledge's sake is a very dangerous thing with
>often tragic consequences as the citizen's of the country I live
>in (Japan) can tell you.
I agree with you ever so much. Yet, to the mind wanting to
comprehend reality all ethics is always going to be secondary in
importance, hence the risks. No matter how incredible high the
statistics about deaths in car accidents might soar, you will
never stop the manufacturing of automoviles. No matter how risky it
might be tripping your brains with that new drug, there will always
be people risking their lives to explore the new realms of
consciousness attainable with that substance. All that can be done
about it is to enforce new regulations (for vehicles, drivers, etc)
designed to minimize the risk. Do you think Einstain could have
stopped his researches into the atom had he been fully sure what
kind of applications it'd end up being put to??. He might have been
overwhelmed by sadness but number one is number one and the human
mind would have ta have real understanding of the atom's nature no
matter what. If his sadness disqualified him to continue his
research, sooner or later others will be stronger and more willing
to be used by the collective will of our species engaged in mapping
the ultimate nature of things. If mapping out the nature of the
quark means blasting everything forever in all directions, you can
bet it will happen, and that big universal hollocaust will turn
into a Big Bang new beginning in some other unfoldment of the great
meta-space.
>Nor does there seem to be any room for growth, if our decisions
>are only "apparently free willed". Why bother studying if I'm told
>at age ten I'll be a doctor. If it's fated it'll just come to me.
Free-will is an ability to transfer one's destiny from one plane of
determination to another plane of determination. If you use your
free will to decide not to study, you are derrailing the train that
will take you to graduation. Still, there is always a superior
explicative plane revealing why you used your free will and WHEN
you used your free will to transfer from one plane of determination
onto another plane of determination. And all that is in the chart.
You can only change planes at the airport, and your chart is a map
of the airports and their schedules of take-offs and landings, plus
the lay out of the take-off and landing lanes and so much more...
>Lastly, what is wrong with "the notion that astrology is basically
>a tool for spiritual growth and self knowledge as well as a
>symbolic language"?
>
>Warmest Regards,
>
>Neil Urquhart
Nothing at all, for as long as we are settled that is all secondary
when you are talking about the essence of astrology.
>From: skyweasel
>> From: DR GONZALO PENA TAMEZ
>> Subject: On conception and the essence of astrology
>
>> select this particular vehicle. The soul, in its ignorance, may
>> believe its is deciding whether to ensoul in this baby in this
>> craddle, or hover over to another craddle to make up its mind.
>> Actually it is only a matter of synastric resolution under a
>> given transit matrix.=20
>
>You seem to be saying the soul is ignorant, and its actions are
>governed by a cosmic matrix or mathematical construct of some
>sort.. am I reading you correctly?
Yes, you are reading me correct. The soul is not a rational entity
like the mind. The mind mirrors the spirit like our emotional
(astral) self mirrors the soul, at least that's the usual
theosophical definition.
>Could you perhaps explain this notation-- 25=B0 ? It appears you
>are saying 25-30 degrees Virgo/Gemini in the example, but the =B0
>part is unfamiliar to me.
Oh, I didn't type that, sorry, that's how the little circle of the
degree symbol was substituted by the metalog software I guess.
Yes, right, I meant to say the first 5 and the last 5 degrees of
both Gemini and Virgo, Mercury's signs.
>> big locomotive engine. Decades later the atom is split and a
>> locomotive engine is nothing. Now they talk about the quark
>> bomb that splits the virtual quarks in the quantum void and
>> liberates unmaginable energies creating an unimaginable
>> explosion that self propagates forever in all directions even in
>> the void between galaxies. So I'd say the physicists are
>
>Are they building one in New Mexico now? I would like a chance to
>call my mom and say goodbye before the universe gets blown up...
>seriously, where did you read about this?
First thing I heard of it was in Paul Davis' books on Quantum
Physics if I remeber well. Later I've read about it in a couple of
articles on quarks in Discover magazine. It's come up too in
discussions on the Eschaton at the Novelty mailing list and
elsewhere in the net.
>> getting beyond limits now as far as relasing energy. I foresee
>> we will see the end of life in this planet by the year 2013,
>> when the Uranus/Pluto square that brought us World War 2 returns
>> in heavens. Just like a few years
>
>Is there more to that prediction than a single square aspect in
>the heavens? I suppose with Pluto in Capricorn, the destruction of
>the earth is possible.
Well there is common agreement among mundane astrologers who have
written about the astrology of World War 2 that this hollocaust was
brought about mainly by precisely that Uranus/Pluto square, which
will nor reccur again until the year 2013. Uranus/Pluto rule
nuclear technology....Prior to 2nd WW humanity had no nuclear
technology...So when this aspect peaked it brought the development
of nuclear power and its first application on a human population ay
Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Next time around it will bring the first
and last quark bomb bringing the end of the World. It is
interesting that when it partiled the last time it formed some good
aspects to the US chart, but when it reccurs in 2013 it wil form a
tight Grand Cross with the tight Sun/Saturn natal square in the US
chart....it is clear that there wont be a stone left in the
US.....but the rest of the world might fare equally bad. We have
to do some serious research on this aspect tagging with what
Nostradamus descibred as World War 4.
>> have made all the difference as far as expanding the limits of
>> what is humanly possible as far as releasing energy, I am
>> convinced that in a few years, when the egg of astrology hatches
>> it will be obvious that the limits of quantitative knowledge of
>> the future tend to infinity. Predicting fractal equations, like
>> Terence McKenna's Time Wave Zero that predicts novelty in the
>> world, or the Elliot Wave that predicts the fluctuations of any
>> economic curve, are already a reality. Soon astrology as we
>> know it will be unrecognizable, because we are working on mighty
>> mathematical ways to predict the future in quantitative terms
>> and with great accuracy.
>
>Time Wave Zero is interesting but the meaning of the actual zero
>event is subject to a lot of debate; join the TWZ mailing list if
>you can stand it. I couldn't.
I've been in that list since the first day over a year ago.
> As for Elliot waves, theorists who fancy that approach
>have been yelling that the stock market sky is about to fall ever
>since the DJIA hit 3,000 and it's nearing 8,000 now. If I were to
>think anything, I would think that that every person who looks at
>cyclical patterns for predictive purposes probably invites the
>trickster into his/her life.
When I purchased the software for handling the Elliot wave, I
joined a discussion group of users of this software and heard a lot
of personal accounts of how this tool is allowing people to make a
lot of money using it for trading. You can write to the Elliot Wave
Center in Australia and ask for admitance to the discussions
gropups of Elliotist traders in the web...
>> > >Please define "astropsychobabbling". I'm not sure what you
>> > >mean.
>> I call astropsychobabbler any practicioner who is unable to
>> predict the future from the chart but nonetheless has come to
>> master the lingo of astrology and blends it with psychological
>> jargon to counsel his clients.
>
>To what extent does a prediction of the future override the will
>of an individual to shape his/her future? I ought to invite Ed
>Wollmann here to debate you, this list will blow up faster than
>the universe with a lit quark bomb... :)
You cannot change what you don't know is going to happen. if you
want to avoid a fatal development first you have to know when and
what is going to happen, then you have to act conducently to
avoiding that fate. To change destiny often implies going against
what is facilitated, so it implies rolling the ball
uphill....that's what you really have to be motivated to do it. The
easy way is to let things happen the way it's written they will
happen.
> Do you readings tend to be purely predictive? You don't feel that
> astrology and psychology are a good mix; to some extent I concur.
> But what do you feel the chart has to say about the psychology of
> its subject?
My readings focus on a synthetic description of the natal chart and
from there I move to paint reasonable future scenarios of the
client's life experience based on transits and progressions. I
explore the best of their good transits ahead with advise as to how
to make the best of them, and also review the worst transits ahead
instructing the client how to avoid undesirable developments by
acting conducently. Often I resource to relocation to avoid a
catastrophe, or simple behavioural changes. I also prescribe
canonic astrological talismans to change fate. The talismans are
prepared by melting appropriate proportions of the metals
corresponding to the planets that will form the bad aspect, but the
talisman piece is cast at the precise instant when the Moon is
activating a trine about to partile between the planets that will
later bring the calamitous square. This is based on experimental
evidence that at the moment the metal hardens as it cools off, the
atoms of the corresponding metals align their spin axis in a trine
angle, endowing the metal piece with a trine aura, that will help
soften the square those same planets will form in the dangerous
dates foreseen ahead. I specialize in treating difficult health
ailments via well designed astrological talismans. I have been
experimenting a lot with this resourse in the last 3 years with
extremely encouraging results. I think there are people in this
list wearing my talismans and they will attest to that.
Thanks for your attention and intelligent remarks.
Best Regards
Dr. Gonzalo Pena Tamez
Astrologer
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 19:18 EST
From: mary downing
Subject: Re: Exegesis Digest V2 #9
Skyweasal asked if Astrology and Psychology were a good mix.
That's a topic I'd like to see chewed a bit.
Consider this: Psychology as we currently practice it is based on
European/American culture of the 19th and 20th centuries.
Astrology works as well for Japanese, ancient Persians and
Microsoft Inc.-- to say nothing of weather prediction and a stock
rally or two.
Psychology represents the cherished beliefs of our dominant western
culture **only**. It is just a **theory** (actually several variant
theories). It is an attempt to externalize the internal thought
processes and emotions using a recognizable pre-agreed verbal code
in order to exchange additional concepts and observations. That's
perfectly fine in its place.
Only the folks that jump rats through hoops, though, have actual
objective data. Most humans sensibly resist that type of
experiment. Once you start the "psychological profile" route, you
have humans (who are "polluted" by everything their culture and
experience have thrown at them) trying to test another equally
damaged subject. What do I have in common with an Islamic Saudi
woman except biology? How could anyone devise a test that would
"objectively" pry our psyches out and compare us?
More and more the medical profession is finding a hormone here, an
enzyme there and genetic code all over the place that produce
behavior supposedly learned at mom's knee.
It just may be that the anthropologists approach is the right one.
Observe man and his cousins in various setting and see if you can
pick out common behavoir. This would at least give us a basis for
understanding the inarticulate drives behind human social patterns.
Apes aren't likely to be as influenced by political correctness as
Democrats, are they?
Astrology, however, applies to the whole of creation. Mother earth
doesn't commit infanticide in earthquakes from a Medea complex.
It's the "whole" time, not just the human slice of it. If quantum
physics is right, all there is is energy somehow controlled
(limited?) and attracted into patterns. If so, we are akin to
everything -- and yes, Virgina, cycles are our window into the
master pattern.
--Mary Downing
Unless otherwise indicated, articles and submissions above are copyright © 1996 -1997 their respective authors.
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