Exegesis Volume 4 Issue #55

From: Janice & Dennis
Subject: feedback to Bill

Exegesis Digest Fri, 25 Jun 1999

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 06:05:17 +1200
From: Janice & Dennis
To: Exegesis
Subject: feedback to Bill

Well, I'm surprised to have triggered that avalanche of questions, Bill, but at least now that you've owned up to Virgo rising I can see where they are coming from!

You are certainly testing my ability to cope with the (essentially self-inflicted) obligation to provide answers. Unlike you I am not retired, and am currently obliged to spend each working day perched on or sliding down steep muddy banks in the rain endeavouring to plant native trees, both wearing out and toning up my physical vehicle. In the evenings I have a couple of hours for alternative pursuits, plus the weekends, but I seem to have to think a fair bit while I write, so it takes a fair amount of Saturn to produce much. All that by the way of an excuse for not responding as comprehensively as I'd like to.

Bill wrote (Ex4/52): "I think an expansion on your delineation of the Virgo archetype is probably the most immediate concern here, because there will be a lot of astrologers out there that will be interested in that; that's the sort of thing they deal with all the time."

Well, goodness me. I thought what I wrote was an expansion! Compared to those inadequate sections of the astrological text-books, I mean.

"Umm... we all speak a common language and are able to explain ourselves, why do you think Cynthia took exception to astringent behavior in the first place?"

Don't ask me, ask her. I am not psychic. Doubt your first statement is true, otherwise you wouldn't have asked me to define such terms as paradigm, archetype, synchronicity. Your second statement may also be incorrect, unless Cynthia fronts up and explains the various esoteric terms she has used for which the explanation has been requested by one or two other contributors. [Since I wrote that a partial explanation has arrived.]

"Could you elaborate on why you think that to collude in an attempt to establish ideals of peaceful co-existence may not be an effective path to social rehabilitation?"

Looks like a straw man, inasmuch as I didn't say I did think that. Perhaps your choice of the word `ideals' is the key. Preaching glorious ideals without practising them hardly makes for credibility.

"I'm not certain I understand how pollution results from misinformation. Who or what defines misinformation? How is it determined to be pollution? Who or what defines the nature of pollution when one man's meat can be another man's poison. If in fact there is no way of determining these matters, perhaps they are best ignored, do you suppose, rather than raise a ruckus unnecessarily when nothing will come of it."

Come on Bill, why ask me to tell your what you already know?? Dirty data is not merely accidental, it is often deliberate. How many hundred times have you seen wrong charts presented as correct ones, either at conferences, in magazines, books, or to clients. It would be extremely tedious to have to list the various types of ethical misconduct that astrologers are prone to, as well as the disinformation techniques. But I suppose that if one day someone wants to produce a doctoral dissertation on the charlatan archetype, they will have to do it. Sooner them than me! Philosophically, your latter point is defeatist. Who judges the judges? Whoever thinks they are a better judge, of course. Be pragmatic. And as for defining pollution, your stance seems identical to that of the capitalists in the '60s and '70s, if not the '80s. "We got these tame scientists here, and we pay these guys so much that they can prove blankety blank is harmless!" For blankety blank, insert whatever industrial product you can remember that qualifies. If people experience it as harmful, that is really all that matters.

"This is an interesting description of the Virgo archetype. How do you determine this. Traditionally, the description of Virgo was best thought to be that of Refinement, or so I recall. How is corrective more accurate and how is it more useful?"

I don't determine that. I merely wrote out my current perception of it, as an exercise in diplomacy. If I were a computer, then what you read was a printout of the Virgo file and the printer was my Ascendant. Traditionally, the description of Virgo varied according to whichever inadequate source one chose to read or ask. If any such was sufficiently accurate/capable as to actually produce `refine' or `refinement' as keywords describing the type of process and effect typically produced by the manifestation of the Virgo archetype, one would certainly be inclined to take that source more seriously. I'd check immediately to see if there were any other goodies in the same basket. As regards your final question, this is for the user to be the judge of. Either you will see Virgo having a corrective effect, or you won't. Even if I were to recommend adopting this keyword, it would not work for you unless it was appropriate for you to incorporate at this stage in your personal development. In fact, Bill, I suspect you are disinclined to adopt new ideas that others advocate. Actually, I find that in such cases the normal outcome is that after a sufficient period of time the resistant one absorbs the new idea, and then trumpets it as his own original insight. I have even caught myself out in this way once or twice!!

"These steps seem useful, but don't you think that there may as well exist other steps here that connect these with the vicissitudes of human endeavor. They sound pretty much like a computer algorithm, and us poor human animals aren't nearly as dependable as those machines, you know < grin > "

Hey, I wasn't trying to rewrite the Bible! If you have any other such steps in mind, be sure to outline them. Otherwise, your hypothetical seems a waste of time; why signal a path that peters out into nothing? Yes, the algorithm likeness is no accident. Why do you think that ritual was so vital in ancient society? Life or death. Get one step wrong in the process, and you fail to produce the outcome. Corn goddess only delivers harvest to those who plant right. Get it right! Check root origin of ritual, from memory Sanskrit for rule or something, as in work to rule, follow the rules, etc.

I wrote: "Obviously those of us with planets in Virgo are unlikely to censor the operation of the corresponding psychological drives, since we all know now that self-repression is unhealthy."

Bill wrote: "Now this is interesting!! How do we all know this? Where does this knowledge come from. It seems to me that this is a really important subject. Obviously you have a sound foundation for asserting this, and I'd be really pleased if you would share it with us. Specifically, why are Virgoan drives more unlikely censurable than those of other Signs, presuming that this is the difference. And secondly, I'm not at all clear on how we all know that self-repression is unhealthy. What is the psychological community's stand on this? Could you present the case here? You must see that these are very important concerns to the astrological community, and are probably as relevant as anything we might discuss here."

I'm a layperson in this area, and hopefully those with more relevant expertise will also respond with answers. I gather Freud & Jung made their reputations out of this in the early 20th century. Assuming you are not pulling my leg, Bill, and are genuinely ignorant of what has been common knowledge for ages! The Jungian view has it that the repressed parts of the psyche constitute the Shadow, which emerges unconsciously in behaviour. Sometimes it is projected (inadvertently) onto others, which confuses interactions something awful. Various alternative healing methods popularised the process of integrating repressed parts of the psyche, in my generation in the '70s, and these got lumped in with the new-age caboodle in the '80s. In the '90s consensus seems to have formed around the opinion that self-repression causes cancer, and it would not surprise me if this were so. You seem to assume that I believe Virgoan drives are "more unlikely censurable". Not so.

"More questions, sorry Dennis, but I may be a little slow here. How is it determined that collective concerns require a clean-up? Is there any universally agreed upon standards in these regards? If so, what are they, and what is the source of their authority; optionally, what is the support for their power or meaningfulness or usefulness? Yeah, I understand the Virgoan fix-it point of view, but I guess I've never gotten beyond doing it for myself.. just too much self fixing ... well, I call it self refinement, actually... that needs doing for me to ever seem to have anything left over for these other activities."

Concerned citizens tend to make that determination. Usually they don't waste time trying to agree on standards, being more inclined to roll up their sleeves and pitch in trying to stem the tide of muck. However, governments tend to follow along behind and formulate and legislate standards which generally reflect community concerns, at least more so this decade than previously. And Bill, do you really think there could be "any universally agreed upon standards"? Are you not aware that the human race has never universally agreed to anything?? As regards your tendency to apply your Virgo Ascendant to yourself, this is hardly surprising. Try to conceive other human beings with other Virgo configurations that motivate their owners to work together in a Virgoan way. That might explain for you the communal enterprises I was discussing.

"Pollution in the universal mind.... I'm really curious as to what this is. How does one determine what is or is not pollution here, or I suppose I already asked this question, but pollution in the universal mind.. is this one or more levels above the collective consciousness, or super consciousness? What is the source of this terminology.."

I cannot instruct you on how to recognise it: there ought to be a feeling response in you that goes "Yuk!" when you see it. If you have a problem with spotting or eliminating pollution, do say so, because it might explain all your questions. I feel rather uncomfortable stating the obvious, and my replies seem to require that I keep doing this, in order to be helpful.

The universal mind was a generally-known concept in the culture of the times when I grew up, and it has not been made more specific since in any consensual way. I am not away of any particular source of the concept, but perhaps the theosophists originated it, or perhaps it is of hermetic or other ancient origin. Morphogenetic fields are the modern theoretical relevance, and I advise integrating them with the theory of holism. That way each collective can be seen to generate its own local subset of the universal mind.

"Now, you say that Virgo acts as a psychic vacuum cleaner... does that mean that a Virgoan sucks up all sorts of psychic "dirt"? Hmmm... not clear here. What sort of Virgo configs do this? Could you be a lot more detailed here, as you are getting beyond my own experiences and my own reading.

The vacuum-cleaner was a figure of speech, which I assumed was obvious. Meant to describe the result rather than the process. What wasn't obvious was that I was referring to the mass effect of the archetype, rather than individual manifestations. Some individuals would be exemplary illustrations, others not. Actually, astrologers don't tend to document such cases. One of my original complaints about them.

"And Fran is right!!! A constructive Virgo function that seems reasonable, but I wonder how these determinations are made. Who decides what needs doing, who decides who is best to do it, under what conditions, when, etc. Your assertions here, while reasonable sounding, leave me uncomfortable as to the particulars, and I must confess it is the particulars here that would make me more comfortable in my understanding here."

Your Virgo rising really goes to town here! These decisions are made for various reasons, it seems, often not even all that clear to those who make them. We must remember that Jung's theory was that the archetypes manifested in the unconscious mind, and I agree largely, so it is no surprise I guess that the motivations are often obscure. I suspect that if you did a survey of those who volunteered for clean-up duties, the responses would coalesce around civic pride and aversion to messes.

"I would guess so!!! With all the things in your resume, you've been very busy. How well received has your work been, by the way. As for the horse and water, the horse general will drink the water the horse wants to drink and when the horse wants to drink it... most often, though, one has to watch that the horse doesn't drink too much too soon. Don't know how that applies to the horse that won't drink though."

If you mean the astrological work, a mixture of appreciation and incomprehension. Probably more accurate to say that in most cases the messages have not actually been received at all.

"Oh dear no!! All Cynthia was on about was your academic style, which she obviously thought was not appropriate here. Some of us are well aware of the sort of exchanges that take place between "colleagues" in academia, and the near knockdown, dragout, warfare that goes on there. She probably detected that in your style here. Doesn't bother me, of course, but it evidently bothers her. I guess it would leave me wondering if it bothers anyone else; I would assume that you could adjust your style if it seemed appropriate...."

No kidding!!?? I wonder if you are right? If I am indeed coming across as academic, I hope others will also object. Provided that they do it in such a way that I can actually understand the point they are trying to make, that is. Given that I was alienated by that stuff a Saturn cycle ago, to the extent that I abandoned a prospective career as a scientist, it would be most unfortunate if my shadow contained such a style.

 > >We must all act in accordance with the motivations endowed by our birth
 > >configuration; it is presumably what we incarnated to do in this lifetime.

"This is a rather puzzling statement, Dennis. Exactly what are you saying here? Are you expressing support for astrological determinism? It certainly seems to me that you are. Could you elaborate rather greatly on this, as it strikes to the heart of the discussions here. A very great deal of material would seem appropriate to any position, and I think that it would express due diligence on your part if you provided at least the outline and essential arguments, along with citations where to get the flesh to hang on the bones. Course if that's not what you are saying here, perhaps you could explain a bit more clearly?"

Well, looking at what I wrote, I don't really see what you are finding obscure. Motivations, perhaps. I follow Rudhyar in this regard. The astrological archetypes produce motivations when they manifest in the psyche, it appears. I guess I follow Arroyo in the psychological application of Rudhyar's ideas; the planetary archetypes seem to function as psychological drives, releasing types of energy. The type of energy is composite; composed of contributions from planet (mainly), sign (secondarily), house and aspects (supplementary modifiers). Dunno if I can be any more explicit than this: the entire matter is speculative, empiricism rules.

As regards reincarnation, I have no memories of past lives. A friend once channelled details of the one prior to this one, in which I was a woman earlier this century in the USA, my (deceased) father was my husband then. I found this all most ludicrous, but my Libra rising managed to avoid being too firm in advising the new-age female friend that I'd need something more substantial before I could entertain the possibility of accepting the scenario. I just have ended up assuming reincarnation probably happens because the other options made less sense. I interpret the natal sun house position in a reincarnational sense, because it seems to be the only rationale that impresses me. If this seems illogical, that is indeed my point! I cannot explain why I began to do that in the mid '80s, it just happened. But I continue to do so because it seems that people resonate with it without much overt conviction just as I do.

"One must certainly hope that the Virgos don't grow up to feel they can dictate to others, to set the standards for others, to enforce these standards. Such things lead to tyranny and ethnic cleansing and none of us would tolerate that, I'm sure."

I agree with the sentiment, but I suppose I must take issue with some details. Your statement reads as though you were referring to Virgo sunsigns. I do hope you are aware that my piece of writing did not contain any such usage. I did not use the word "Virgos" at all. My piece was entirely addressing the Virgo archetype, and that alone!

Would-be dictators and tyrants are much thinner on the ground than they used to be, and the desire to control others seems to come from Pluto more than Virgo or any other astrological archetype. You are probably right about ethnic cleansing though, and presumably the Uranus/Pluto in Virgo generation are responsible for this contemporary re-emergence of a traditional form of tribal competition. The activator is the waxing square. Pluto in Sag is powerful transformation of collective motivations and social dynamics involving group cohesion, trajectory and guidance, and tribes are the main traditional context. I guess Kashmir is the only obvious case where the secondary traditional context (religions) is the current focus of power struggles.

If you have Pisces planets opposing anything in Virgo in your chart, you could try the following meditation. It is also a good way to co-activate the right & left brain hemispheres...

On a nice day, park yourself on a deserted beach. Watch the waves awhile, rolling eternally in from the ocean (Pisces). Allow the mind to drift on the ebb and flow (you could even reflect on how each single wave has dual phases, the yin/yang symbol), all the while sifting the grains of sand (Virgo) through your fingers...

OK, that's enough for the right brain. Now start counting those grains...


Hopefully that exercise will allow your left brain to learn its appropriate role in the general scheme of things, Bill!

best wishes

Dennis Frank


End of Exegesis Digest Volume 4 Issue 55

[Exegesis Top][Table of Contents][Prior Issue][Next Issue]

Unless otherwise indicated, articles and submissions above are copyright © 1996-1999 their respective authors.